An open talk with former UGA black athletes on police experiences, racism and reform

Note: This is the first installment of a two-part conversation around race relations with a selected group of six former black athletes at Georgia.

A sequence of memories vividly cling to Rashad Roundtree’s mind. He remembers 2012 in Richmond County, Georgia as if it were yesterday.

Roundtree grew up in an area with a majority-black population and Augusta as its county seat. His father, Richard Roundtree, ran for the county sheriff during the election cycle. Rashad lived through the thrill of observing his father’s political process. He became enthralled.

A few months had passed and Richard won the vote. He became the county’s first-ever black sheriff. It called for celebration, including a letter from then-President Barack Obama.

Twenty-four hours had passed, though, and the emotion flipped. Thirty cops resigned due to the new sheriff’s skin color. The unfathomable followed.

“We had death threats at our house for three weeks,” said Roundtree, who added that his dad purchased an auto-start vehicle with the worry of someone planting a bomb onto his car. “I realized that it was not only serious, but people were here to take action.”

There are many stories similar to Roundtree’s as African-American citizens face racial tension and have concerns with law enforcement. The recent deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor spark a number of discussions and shared perspectives.

The Telegraph, seeking the athlete’s experience as a black man or woman in America, gathered a group of six former athletes at Georgia. Meet the panelists:

• Haley Clark: A defined leader for the Lady Bulldogs women’s basketball team over a four-year career. Clark earned the 2018 Co-Scholar Athlete of the Year honor while pursuing a career in finance

• Aaron Davis: As a former Georgia football walk-on, Davis became a starting defensive back. He recorded 43 tackles, fifth-best on the team as a senior in 2017.

• Mackenzie Engram: A third-round draftee by the WNBA’s Atlanta Dream and a leading contributor to the Lady Bulldogs over four seasons. Engram has become known for openly sharing her faith and serving others through social media.

• Yante Maten: A three-time all-SEC honoree, Maten fills the Georgia men’s basketball record books. The Pontiac, Michigan native made his NBA debut with the Miami Heat and currently plays in the Boston Celtics organization.

• Keturah Orji: As an Olympian for the United States national team, Orji cemented herself as one of the greatest Georgia track and field athletes in program history. She was awarded the Women’s Field Athlete of the Year honor during the 2018 outdoor season.

• Rashad Roundtree: A former five-star recruit from Evans, Georgia who played three seasons for the Bulldogs football team before medically retiring.

The session with the participants revealed a myriad of thoughts, stories and perspectives. This roundtable will center around experiences with police officers and thoughts on reform.

What are some of your experiences with law enforcement?

MATEN: I lived in a predominantly-white area of California. I might’ve been 13 but was bigger than a typical adult male at that age. I was helping our elderly neighbors chop some wood. They told me to bring some back of my own. I crossed the street and the police pulled me over. My mom came right outside and told me to go inside. I told him what I was doing, but he assumed that I stole it and had to confirm my story. There weren’t many African-American men there, especially at my size.

ENGRAM: I was visiting Yante once, and something happened where the police needed to be called. His mom did not let him come outside. That’s the first time where I’d ever been in a position of thinking “this is real.” This isn’t just a game, just in one city or only in the South. This is everywhere. We needed to call the police to help us, but she didn’t feel safe to send her black son outside. I would have to check everything is OK because my skin complexion is a bit lighter. That really opened my eyes.

It sucks because I’m mixed and can’t fully understand what it’s like to be fully black. But a couple of days ago, I called my dad. I’ve been really emotional when thinking that when a close one to me leaves home that they might not return. I remember I pulled into Walmart and started bawling crying about what I’d do if I lost my dad (to police brutality). I called him and asked if he had ever experienced anything with police. He said he had dealt with jerks, but “knew how to work with them.” You can no longer say that. You have people who have their hands up on their knees or say they’re reaching for their wallet, but still dying. I was in that position of having to accept that this is the world that we live in. It’s not something you’re proud of.

ROUNDTREE: My dad has always let me know that there are good cops and bad cops. I’ve always had a lot of respect for police officers, but he would have to tell me that there are some with bad intentions. There were even people on his force who didn’t have the best intentions, but that’s the way it is. It’s a bigger movement that has to happen before the little things get changed.

Has athletic stature changed your interaction with police?

ROUNDTREE: In high school, I got pulled over four times and got zero tickets. That doesn’t make sense. I know exactly why I got pulled over each time. They saw my name, who I was and backed off in each situation. They’ll look at my name and say, “I heard you’re this guy and going to Georgia.”

They didn’t recognize that if I’m not in team apparel. I remember being racially profiled, but feel like I have to wear my name tag around just so people can show me some type of respect. Once the helmet comes off, you’re a whole different person and viewed differently. They’ll cheer for you on Saturdays, but they don’t want you in class with their kids or doing certain things.

ENGRAM: What you said about the name tag brought a situation to mind. My brother played at Ole Miss, and my father and I were on our way home from a game. He got pulled over for no reason. The cop was super rude, demanding his ID and telling him X, Y and Z. He asked where you’re coming from and my dad said he’s leaving the Ole Miss football game. The cop asked what he was doing there and my dad said, “I’m supporting my son who is on the team.”

The cop had this weird attitude and almost didn’t believe him. He asked for his name and my dad said “Evan Engram.” Literally, at the second he said Evan Engram, the man’s whole demeanor changed. He was nice, kind and very apologetic. He said, “I’m so sorry, didn’t mean to. I’m a huge fan of your boy and he’s an amazing player.” It’s crazy that you have to carry around this name tag and simply saying who your son is changes perspective on you.

How do these inequalities with police tie into your perception around the killings and protests?

DAVIS: I’m thinking about the response. The death angered such a broad base of people and these protests started. You see how quick they move to hush the protests and the types of force used to get people out of the street. Why didn’t you use that same energy when it comes to disciplining the police officer? If you really wanted to stop the violence, then arrest all of them. It shouldn’t take two weeks and we don’t want to hear about due process. We all watched the same video. There’s nothing to discuss.

You’re so quick to use military force on your citizens, but once again the issue at hand is coming second to stop all of the protesting. If you want it stopped, then we need change. If a cop has multiple incidents against them, get them out of here. Hire some new people and train them the right way. The response to the protest has been glaringly different to that of the actual killing.

ORJI: That reinforces why people are protesting in the first place. The cops are using way too much force and overreacting to things that they don’t need to.

What were some of your first lessons on how to handle law enforcement?

CLARK: One of the first things my parents taught me was, when I get pulled over I call them on my phone. I leave it on speaker so they hear what’s happening and are aware of the situation. We have to remember too that for us, we’ve been brought up in different homes. There are a lot of black people who don’t have parents that are there. They grow up very ignorant and don’t comply. A lot of these kids grow up seeing negative things about these police officers and don’t respect them. But just because they haven’t been taught that, doesn’t mean they deserve to die.

DAVIS: There are a lot of things that black people teach. When you go into the store, don’t put your hands in your pockets. When you go outside, have a shirt on and don’t have a tank top on. Don’t wear your hood. There are so many things they teach, because it brings unwarranted attention and you could just be minding your business. You could be cold and need your hood or hands in your pockets, but you can’t do it because someone could automatically assume you’re stealing something.

How could there be a quicker fix for easing tension between black citizens and law enforcement? In which ways is reform necessary?

DAVIS: I said something when the whole thing happened with George Floyd. When that happens and the police officer isn’t punished accordingly, it essentially is a public lynching. It’s a modern-day public lynching to watch somebody die in that manner and nothing happen in multiple cases. Those are scare tactics, and black people feel like they’re outnumbered in most scenarios. I don’t want to be that next person.

There needs to be a nationwide reform. I don’t know what the training looks like, but it’s obviously not adequate enough. These officers are not making wise decisions, and we don’t want to hear that it’s just one bad apple. There are too many cases to say that. And if you witness and don’t do anything, then you’re just as big of a problem.

There should be a new training program for them to understand their own community and the people they’re policing. That’ll allow them to understand reactions they’re having with all members of the community. There should also be initiatives to weed out people who they know are bad. It has to be from top-down to say that this person is a problem, we know that and are not covering up the incident. You can’t say we’re going to place him on administrative leave, move him somewhere two counties over and it’ll be fine. That’s not good enough.

CLARK: I think some of them are racist and some just legitimately fear black people. How do you teach them not to fear a black person to where the first instinct isn’t to shoot?

DAVIS: You have to be around them. You can’t be in a situation to say you’re a white cop in a predominantly-white neighborhood and that’s all you know. Then all of a sudden, you decide to be a police officer and thrown into a mostly-black environment in the next county over. They’d have no idea, so you have to slowly ease them in with a black officer alongside.

I remember the story of someone seeing a door open and was concerned for the individual inside. The cop came up, shined his light through the window, shot the person and killed them. It’s like, “How do you even have the rationale to do something like that?” If you’re with someone who knows how to handle it, you could walk in together and say, “This is how it should be done.”

ORJI: They need to use policies on when to use force. They’re saying, “I fear for my life, so I brought out the gun” right now. There need to be policies where you do certain things before pulling out the gun. There needs to be more training on when to pull the gun, what force to use first and not being on someone’s neck with your knee. There need to be more specifics, and you can’t jump to, “I pulled out my gun.”

The punishment needs to be more strict. With the guy who killed George Floyd, he had multiple cases. Why was he still a police officer? If someone has one or two strikes, there’s no need to put them out in the field. They need to be out on desk duty or fired. That way people know it’s not OK. They need to punish officers when not in line.

ROUNDTREE: I think both of y’all hit the point perfectly. I don’t know what all you could do. Somebody threw out the idea of having different tiers of police force. You have to be at certain levels before you can hold a gun. Or maybe a cop can only respond to certain traffic incidents. You shouldn’t have a gun on a traffic stop, because you don’t need that.

When you call in SWAT, you know they’re in to do a certain thing. Shoot, police think they’re SWAT nowadays. They just want to fix the problem. It’s crazy to me that it takes so few hours to be a police officer. You can’t have bad apples in the police force. You can’t have one, you can’t have two or you can’t have a few. Anything where you’re responding to somebody’s life or death situation, you can’t have bad apples. They should be held to a higher standard, because they’re supposed to protect and serve. That’s why incidents like this happen.

This isn’t like somebody coming in to clean your home and saying, “Oh, I did a bad job.” No, man. You’re responsible for people’s lives. It’s the same way we view our soldiers as these people who go through crazy training. You don’t think of soldiers as bad apples. They’re viewed as great citizens, and police officers should have that same respect. But they’re not held to that standard.

CLARK: It’s not as simple as we’d like it to be. There are officers who abuse their authority and don’t have great training. At the end of the day, they have families they want to go home to and see some crazy stuff. I don’t feel like fear is a thing that you can just change. They’ll have to make amends in the black communities so the black people respect them. They’ll also have to see that “I don’t have to fear John-John, because I’ve known him since he was 8. He’s 16 now and he’s a person. He’s a good person. He might have a bad day.” That way, they’re not trained to fear.

I do think, for some people, that it really is fear. You can’t train out fear. If I’m thinking about my little girl to go home to and somebody pulls out a brush, I’m not waiting to see if it’s a brush or not. I’m going to shoot you. That goes back to fear. If it’s somebody like John-John or someone I know as a good kid, my first instinct isn’t to think the brush is a gun. There are a lot of different things that’ll have to happen.

DAVIS: That goes back to the training. I listen to military officers talk about all of the steps needed until they can use deadly force. The training needs to be more rigorous, because we are supposed to be holding these people to a higher standard. I watched the Dave Chapelle comedy show, and as funny as it was, I took it seriously. Imagine getting on a plane and the pilot is a bad apple. The people would never go for that and I wouldn’t get on the plane. You have my life in the palm of your hand. You have to be comfortable in those situations. If you can’t tell that person has a brush or pulls out a cell phone, you’re trained to see the signs and even disarm them.

ORJI: If someone has a fear like that, then you shouldn’t be a police officer. I don’t care what the reason is; you should go find another occupation. Because that’s part of the job. It’s unacceptable to (hypothetically) shoot someone because you thought they had a gun when it was a brush.

ROUNDTREE: The criteria for police has dropped and that’s crazy. You need a high school education to be a police officer. That’s not acceptable anymore. You see what type of people are getting into these jobs. When you think of Marines and high-level people, they have to beat out other people to get in the line of work. They can’t do a little bit of work and say, “Hey, I’m a police officer. I can start as a security guard and work my way up.” They should be part of great respect for law enforcement, but it takes high-level training.

It’s the same thing as athletes. We didn’t get to where we are by being mediocre. We had to train and beat out other people to prove we belonged. We felt more for the team than we did as an individual. That’s not what cops feel. They only think about themselves and what they’ve got going on. You can’t have that if you’ve got a gun and are in charge of somebody’s life.

CLARK: More training costs more money. That means higher taxes, so we have to be willing to pay for it as a nation.

ROUNDTREE: We can require a degree for it. That’s fine. There’s a degree for everything else. All of these options are running through my head, but a high school education? That’s going to lead to corrupt officers.

In Kentucky, they fired the police chief and the staff. That speaks volumes because it lets you know how corrupt the system is. You hear these stories of cops saying certain things on audio. That has been in the system for so long because you let anybody in a uniform to be disguised people. It’s how you have to think, because that’s what we’re living out. People don’t care and it’s a systematic thing. If one person gets off with shooting a guy because he put his hands in his pockets, then you set that example. You told every other officer in the world that if someone has hands in their pockets, you can shoot and get away with murder. The fact that officers can get away with murder, we have to change that narrative.

ORJI: I think biases are a real thing, too, and maybe cops should have a bias test. If they’re shown to have a bias toward a certain race, then they don’t pass and immediately become a police officer. They might have to do more and try to break down those biases. Go expose yourself, then come and take the bias test again. If you don’t break those biases, then you don’t become a cop. Maybe that could be another idea, because a bias could lead to killing someone out of fear.

This story was originally published June 5, 2020 at 11:18 AM.